Posts by Mr Lebowski

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

Jesus, Gary, if I wanted to read that much of the Watchtower...:)

More on the question posed by min. I just had a conversation with a longtime friend who is a therapist of 20 years' standing (and female, if it matters). She confirmed the two categories I posted (1, fear, and 2, negative self-image compatible with the abuse).

It is also her professional opinion (which may wind up a few of you, I suspect) that mind control of any kind is a myth, that controlling organizations of any stripe - religious, professional, etc., all attempt to influence our behavior,but that control of our minds is a far different thing. She felt that members of Scientology, Moonies, etc, are influenced by their groups, but that they are getting benefits from the structure that solve some problem, fill some void, or address some need in their lives at that time. People leave when they discern (not us, them!) a deficit in the benefits vs. the prices.

Anyway, for what it's worth...

Look both ways,

Dudeman

42

Is there one thing that convinces you that the JW's are wrong ???

by run dont walk in

doctrines, people, elders, family, beliefs, is there a certain thing that convinces you they are wrong ???.

had a discussion with my mom the other day and she asked "how can you be so sure they are wrong ?".

i picked two topics that i had not talked to her about ( already said the pedophile, un, generation stuff.).

Mr Lebowski

Yah, reducing it to one thing is hard.

1) Lack of respect/value for women as individuals

2) Acceptance of such bible stories as the destruction of the city of Ai and the 42 kids being killed by the bear after teasing the balding prophet of God as fair and accurate events.

3) Making the doctrinal structure so f#$#ing complicated... after a while (when you get older and you bull#$#% detector becomes more advanced) you can smell the dead rat behind the curtain. Occam's razor - the idea that the simplest possible explanation is likely the truth, is enough on its own to give the lie to this load of crap. An autistic three-year on peyote could come up with a better theology than this one.

44

to ex-jw's specifically: with what have you replaced your belief system..

by thebeliever in

jw
friends

how do you now understand the world... and your place in it?.

i personally believe in evolution... and also a "higher power"... it seems more and more people are drifting away from organized religion, but they are then left searching for meaning and purpose..... going to college/university and studying a normal curriculum, one is exposed to philosophy, the socrates and platos of history, who in many ways started widespread discussion on such topics as above.

some sort of philosophy has to be studied i believe, just so one can understand the history of man, from that point in time and how we came to christianity in the first place.. however, it is a very personal matter, as we must all find our own answers.. i believe it is natural for people to be drawn to ponderings of purpose and god, and there are many ways to seek connection to that souce.

Mr Lebowski

Yah, one interesteing thing about leaving and afterwards, taking responsiblity for you belief systems, is taht you are conscious of what you choose and most others aren't.

you seem to have picked up many of the same items I have... buddhist philosophy without the religious trappings, etc.

I'll go along with a power larger than myself alone, but that we are all part of... that's as close as I get to a big white guy with a beard.

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

anyone?

27

Suppose You Said "I Forgive the Watchtower"?

by metatron in

you may be confronted with relatives and witness friends who annoy you, with self-righteous comments about "coming back.

to the 'truth' and other judgemental urgings.. suppose you replied "i forgive the watchtower society for the terrible things they've done, i need to do that so i can progess as a. spiritual person".. such a response might be very disarming - and difficult to counter.. witnesses generally reject the notion that the watchtower can ever do anything wrong - rationalizing that any cruelties they.

inflict are somehow part of a greater divine purpose.

Mr Lebowski

As a conversational ploy, it will be as ineffective as the "uhhh... my baptism is a do-over!" strategies I've seen posted.

As an actual means of healing yourself, you can forgive individuals, I don't think you can forgive an organization.

If you're trying to see how long you can stay pissed off, the answer is forever, but what does it get you besides stress-related health issues and reduced interpersonal communication skills? (When you stay pissed off for a long time, about anything, it comes out at inappropriate times).

Better to give as before, forgive, which does not require conditional performance first, just a letting go of the chip on your shoulder. ALl of you can do it, once you decide to, and when you do it will free up lots of energy for the rest of your life.

Respecfully,

The Duder

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

OK, let's do that, min... and I have some background here, from my volunteer work in the field and what I've been told by professionals much more qualified than I.

When a person is being physically attacked, in that moment, they are under duress of another, and in control.

The rest of the time, they are free to leave at any time, and the only reasons they stay are the same as JW's:

1) Fear of what will happen if you leave (note that that is a deterrent, but not a control - otherwise no one would leave their abusive husbands).

2) the abusive relationship fulfills a negative self-belief, and until their need for well-being is stronger than their belief that they deserve what's happening to them, they stay.

I am not a trained pro, and if min is not either, we might want to defer to the pros, but this is what I have read and been told first-person by the pros.

Comments from others, please (especially those with expereince or from social professionals)?

Cracked as ever,

The Dude

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

Well, at least we're not name calling :)

I have a hard time with accepting it sometimes, but JW's choose to do what they do...and I have to respect that and honor their choice. To do less is to dishonor and disrespect them as individual humans... if I want unconditional love, respect, and acceptance, then I'd better give it.

By viewing JW's as victims, you disempower them as individuals with the power of choice, and you deny them the basic respect that all individuals deserve (obviously they don't earn extra-credit points for advanced logical thinking, but we're talking baseline, thousand-year-old-carrier-of-the-light respect here - and lots of us suck at that! :)

I have close relatives that are still active JW's, and if I choose to view them as victims, then I also choose to view tham in some sense as incapable. I refuse to view any adult human as incapable, short of physical defect or injury, or a condition that would support a finding of incompetence in a court of law. Viewing another human as incapable is a judgement of them as bad as their judgements on many of us.They have the same ability to excel, to soar, to paint or write or perform masterpieces, that we all do - and if we want to throw rocks at them for being incapable... well, we should first ask, what are we doing with our lives?

Back to the crack pipe,

Dudeski

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

Congratulations, Blondie, for great research (I had read that site as well, but was waiting for minimus to post it to define his terms :)~

I think heathen is correct - no minds are changing. I don't think it has gone on too long, though... I have greatly enjoyed many of the posts.

I agree that all the techniques listed are used by the WTS. I still believe, however, that the techniques are only effective in the long term with those that are trying to fill a void. I think that "mind control" is a misleading and incorrect way to describe this social interaction. And it is an inter-action... because humans never choose to do anything unless they believe they are getting benefits, so JW's are getting exactly what they want out of the deal, and they don't quit until that equation changes.

Thanks all, for stimulating conversation (either way:)

El Duderino

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

There seem to be three groups here on the thread (along with some who have spoken out as feeling ambivalent and seeing both sides of some arguments):

1) Those who believe in "mind control", and believe that JW's are victims of it.

2) Those who believe in "mind control", but do not believe that JW's are victims of it.

3) Those who don't believe in "mind control" at all (I will stipulate that members of this group may accept mind control techniques as a result of physical torture or physical coercion - I don't know, but that does not apply to JW's).

Groups 1 and 2 have a fundamentally different philosophical position than group 3. This difference, whether humans are able to be victims of mind control, or are always the captains of their ship, as it were, is a huge question! How we as individuals approach this question has everything to do with how we approach life itself - what kind of difference we believe we can make, what kind of impact we believe we can have, whether we will succeed at what we do - or if it's going to be outside influences that defeat us. I've concluded that this thread is becoming a tussle between the first and third groups, and it reads as if it's about facts and definitions, but it's really about positions that we've taken in how we look at life...and the most stubborn of us (or, the most fully-developed, take your pick:) will not change those fundamental philosophical position because of this thread.

I was raised as a JW, and I feel that I was lied to, pressured, manipulated, etc., but I do not feel that I was a victim of mind control. I feel that anyone who enters/remains in the WTS as an adult is either:

A) afraid of leaving due to the social pressures

B) getting their psychological needs partially filled by the social structure of the JW's, and believing that that's the best source around for such fulfillment. I think that many people have such gulfs, such voids, in their lives and in their perceptions of themselves, that they will eat any amount of s#*$ to get the paltry bennies from being a Witness... and I think that many people who we would like to say are victims of mind control are really members of this group. Think about it - please.

Yes, I do believe that the WTS does their flock many disservices and yes, outright harm, attempting to inhibit the members from learning how to be more fulfilled, more happy, from attempting to recover from attacks and crimes, and from becoming more completely developed as adult humans. And yes, I was pissed off at them when I figured out that that's what they do. But I played the game... and I know why, I know what I got out of it... and since I've figured that out, I've made real headway in changing - in correcting, improving, and strengthening the parts of me that were raised to need the WTS's scraps of happiness, so that I could go out and cook up my own feast.

There is a school of thought that says that the most effective way to go through life is as if you are the one who is always responsible for what you think, say, and do... that operating as if this is true means you will make the choices that make the largest impact. Rather than "reasons", you would be focused on the result...and if the result wsn't what you expected, instead of wasting time looking for who or what to blame, you would look at what you needed to do differently (since it's the thing you can affect anyway). This is only recommended for those who are looking to create the largest difference in the world... if all you want to do is be right all the time, don't try it, it will just piss you off.

One who walks in another's tracks leaves no footprints.

Big purple fuzzy dinosaur feelings,

The Dude

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

(as an aside) Minimus, you said in one of your later posts that at first you felt alone on this thread, and that no one agreed with you. LOL. The first twenty posters (not posts, posters) were agreeing with you, some in large red letters!

Many examples of the WTS's attempts to control its members have been cited here as "proof" of the WTS's use of mind control. I'd like to stipulate the following, so we as a group don't feel the need to bring up further examples:

1) The org attempts to control the behavior of its members to a very high degree, using a variety of social pressures - peer pressure, threat of absolute rejection, and the threat of losing a paradise in the hereafter. These techniques displace the community placing any value on free speech, free dissent, or even individuality itself.

2) Physical coercion against leaving is not standard practice (although minor children often experience such from angry fathers). Instead, the social pressures mentioned above are used to deter members from leaving.

3) While many groups use similar techniques (examples have been given) only a few fringe groups attempt to carry very many of them to a greater extreme than the WTS. Most of those are viewed as cults by even more people than the WTS (often because their manner of dress and grooming is even more conformist and less mainstream than JWs), and many of those groups also employ physical deterrence against leaving.

Hopefully we can agree on these points...